Like the ancient Greeks, Shea and I like to discuss things for the sheer joy of intellectual conversation and philosophical contemplation. Also like the ancient Greek philosophers, we think we should rule the world. (Council debate, anyone?)
This is the Council. We agree on things. We argue about things. We think you should know. We think you should comment.
If at some point you wish to join a Council, submit your application and we will consider it. :)
Two other things. Sorry if the conversation seems a tad scrambled...it is, after all, a conversation. You may need to refer back to previous comments to make sense of it all. Secondly, I apologize if Council meetings ever seem to end abruptly. We are all at the beck and call of...destiny. Also homework and parents.
This first Council will be held with my counterpart Shea Megale of www.sheamegale.weebly.com It concerns the Tolkienization of today's fantasy genre. Don't get us wrong. We both love Lord of the Rings...
Me = Blue
Shea = Green
So, friends, we're gathered here today to discuss originality in books,
specifically fantasy novels.
Oh. I guess you're starting. No, that's fine. I mean, we didn't AGREE on that
or anything but that's cool.
Is this thing on? *taps mike*
I'm ready. Interview me.
(She's been dying to do this)
One of our enlightened councilwomen has brought up the problem of Tolkien,
and the inability of most authors to get around using his ideas. The other enlightened councilwomen mentioned the relevance of that issue
with specific regard to Eragon.
Indeed. And I'd like to state that Tolkien HIMSELF did not have such original
ideas as the ones authors are using. His plot was original, if not noticably
symbolic, but the elements of elves and dwarves are themes recycled again and
again. Elves = pure, dwarves = rugged, drinkers, miners. That's not new.
The second one was me, but I gather that Shea has a few opinions on the
topic. Shea if you would?
I would indeed.
No symbolism? Did you miss the ring?
Eragon was written by a 15 year old. I was a year younger when I began
Breakers, my first novel. And I'd like to praise both of us for finishing a book
at that age. But his characters suffered.
No I meant it IS symbolic
Really. Eragon has all the intelligence of...of Pip, from Great
Expectations.
Well, see here...
Have you read?...but anyway, back to the topic at hand.
Here's the issue with protagonists, and perhaps this should be the focus of
this meeting.
If your character is:
A) Innocent as a lamb
B) Orphaned
C) a bumbling idiot
Okay
D) mentored by someone old and wise
He should not be your main character. WHY SO MANY ORPHANS?
You want to know why?
I have an answer
It's because young adult authors struggle with their characters being both
independent and young.
Parents restrict their children
I agree. Too true. Except in dear Harry's case.
It adds family dynamics that maybe the author didn't want to include
It's hard to write parental relationships?
How lazy. Dreadful.
Well, because they're all so easily chilched, yes
Admittedly, I succumb to this excuse SOMEHWAT with my
protaginists
In most of my protagnist cases, I allow them to have one
parent
Which is better than the cliche orphan
Let's all give her a hand for the great new word, folks! I think we have here
among us another Seuss!
Which word? Eh?
In a way. Have you noticed that all newbury award winners have the single
parent thing? Or is it just me?
chilched. also protagnist. and SOMEHWAT.
Sorry. Do go on.
Well, that was all really. You've not given our opinion on Ergaon
You may have all realized that I consider him a tad dimwitted. The plotline
wasn't terribly original, but the scenery...the elves...the language...the
dwarves...the Urgals...all dreadfully Tolkien-esque.
I resent that. I really do.
I think that if you're going to claim the fame of writing a book at age 15,
you should darn well write your own book.
Well that's the thing about fantasy.
It's meant to transport the reader into an alien, fantastic world but the
reader now finds these worlds dreadfully familiar, defeating the CAPITAL point
of the genre
I have also heard people complain of other series Eragon borrowed
from...pendragon or something....I haven't read the others, so I don't know.
Well now, I do have to defend him. I'm sure to him, he thought he was being
original
It depends on the book.
What of my book? Oh, wait, you haven't read it.. :)
However, there is a definite trend.
I can agree that if I were writing a book myself, and maybe at some point I
will be, it would be difficult sometimes to tell exactly where i draw my
inspirations from, or if they are original.
Getting there, Shea. Getting there.
You'll draw the inspirations from me.
So let's talk about some of the elements that need to go, shall we? As you've
already pointed out, not all these trends began with Tolkien.
Certainly. You start
(Of course I will)
So let's look at Tolkien. What do we know about him?
Englishman. Friends with C.S.Lewis. Converted Lewis to Christianity, in
fact.
That's about all I know, do you have anything to add?
...You don't want to know the things I know.
I think....I think they were members of a sort of author's club.
I seriously could write a biography. I went through a phase.
Just sayin'
The Inklings
;)
Seriously I know everything.
We should probably move on to the point
Ah, yes. Great name. Ink. Just like my site...but back to the topic...
Ah-ha-ha self promotion...
Well, I'm just trying to figure out what Tolkien drew his inspirations from.
Classic tales, perhaps? Collaboration with other fantasy authors?
Oh easy.
He was inspired by A) Mythology and B ) Christianity, more specifically,
Catholicism
In any event, we can surmise, as you said, that classic dwarves and elves
were already around. Tolkien sort of...made them more epic though.
And I thought he was Anglican or
something.
exactly.
well what made it epic?
the story
You could say fire
was always around
But I made it epic
because of the story
Yes and no. Dwarves were transformed...no longer the happy little 7 bachelors
needing a maid, they became an fierce and proud nation.
Elves too...the guardians, as it were, of the light.
Eh, I dpn't know. I'm still angry about Tolkien's dwarves in the
Hobbit
as ranted about in my recent blog post
As opposed to either bothersome pixies or dancing sprites.
I guess that's a fair point. You might even say Tolkien made it less
racist
Middle Earth. Where did that come from? Absolute good vs. Absolute evil,
obviously similar to Christianity.
This is the Council. We agree on things. We argue about things. We think you should know. We think you should comment.
If at some point you wish to join a Council, submit your application and we will consider it. :)
Two other things. Sorry if the conversation seems a tad scrambled...it is, after all, a conversation. You may need to refer back to previous comments to make sense of it all. Secondly, I apologize if Council meetings ever seem to end abruptly. We are all at the beck and call of...destiny. Also homework and parents.
This first Council will be held with my counterpart Shea Megale of www.sheamegale.weebly.com It concerns the Tolkienization of today's fantasy genre. Don't get us wrong. We both love Lord of the Rings...
Me = Blue
Shea = Green
So, friends, we're gathered here today to discuss originality in books,
specifically fantasy novels.
Oh. I guess you're starting. No, that's fine. I mean, we didn't AGREE on that
or anything but that's cool.
Is this thing on? *taps mike*
I'm ready. Interview me.
(She's been dying to do this)
One of our enlightened councilwomen has brought up the problem of Tolkien,
and the inability of most authors to get around using his ideas. The other enlightened councilwomen mentioned the relevance of that issue
with specific regard to Eragon.
Indeed. And I'd like to state that Tolkien HIMSELF did not have such original
ideas as the ones authors are using. His plot was original, if not noticably
symbolic, but the elements of elves and dwarves are themes recycled again and
again. Elves = pure, dwarves = rugged, drinkers, miners. That's not new.
The second one was me, but I gather that Shea has a few opinions on the
topic. Shea if you would?
I would indeed.
No symbolism? Did you miss the ring?
Eragon was written by a 15 year old. I was a year younger when I began
Breakers, my first novel. And I'd like to praise both of us for finishing a book
at that age. But his characters suffered.
No I meant it IS symbolic
Really. Eragon has all the intelligence of...of Pip, from Great
Expectations.
Well, see here...
Have you read?...but anyway, back to the topic at hand.
Here's the issue with protagonists, and perhaps this should be the focus of
this meeting.
If your character is:
A) Innocent as a lamb
B) Orphaned
C) a bumbling idiot
Okay
D) mentored by someone old and wise
He should not be your main character. WHY SO MANY ORPHANS?
You want to know why?
I have an answer
It's because young adult authors struggle with their characters being both
independent and young.
Parents restrict their children
I agree. Too true. Except in dear Harry's case.
It adds family dynamics that maybe the author didn't want to include
It's hard to write parental relationships?
How lazy. Dreadful.
Well, because they're all so easily chilched, yes
Admittedly, I succumb to this excuse SOMEHWAT with my
protaginists
In most of my protagnist cases, I allow them to have one
parent
Which is better than the cliche orphan
Let's all give her a hand for the great new word, folks! I think we have here
among us another Seuss!
Which word? Eh?
In a way. Have you noticed that all newbury award winners have the single
parent thing? Or is it just me?
chilched. also protagnist. and SOMEHWAT.
Sorry. Do go on.
Well, that was all really. You've not given our opinion on Ergaon
You may have all realized that I consider him a tad dimwitted. The plotline
wasn't terribly original, but the scenery...the elves...the language...the
dwarves...the Urgals...all dreadfully Tolkien-esque.
I resent that. I really do.
I think that if you're going to claim the fame of writing a book at age 15,
you should darn well write your own book.
Well that's the thing about fantasy.
It's meant to transport the reader into an alien, fantastic world but the
reader now finds these worlds dreadfully familiar, defeating the CAPITAL point
of the genre
I have also heard people complain of other series Eragon borrowed
from...pendragon or something....I haven't read the others, so I don't know.
Well now, I do have to defend him. I'm sure to him, he thought he was being
original
It depends on the book.
What of my book? Oh, wait, you haven't read it.. :)
However, there is a definite trend.
I can agree that if I were writing a book myself, and maybe at some point I
will be, it would be difficult sometimes to tell exactly where i draw my
inspirations from, or if they are original.
Getting there, Shea. Getting there.
You'll draw the inspirations from me.
So let's talk about some of the elements that need to go, shall we? As you've
already pointed out, not all these trends began with Tolkien.
Certainly. You start
(Of course I will)
So let's look at Tolkien. What do we know about him?
Englishman. Friends with C.S.Lewis. Converted Lewis to Christianity, in
fact.
That's about all I know, do you have anything to add?
...You don't want to know the things I know.
I think....I think they were members of a sort of author's club.
I seriously could write a biography. I went through a phase.
Just sayin'
The Inklings
;)
Seriously I know everything.
We should probably move on to the point
Ah, yes. Great name. Ink. Just like my site...but back to the topic...
Ah-ha-ha self promotion...
Well, I'm just trying to figure out what Tolkien drew his inspirations from.
Classic tales, perhaps? Collaboration with other fantasy authors?
Oh easy.
He was inspired by A) Mythology and B ) Christianity, more specifically,
Catholicism
In any event, we can surmise, as you said, that classic dwarves and elves
were already around. Tolkien sort of...made them more epic though.
And I thought he was Anglican or
something.
exactly.
well what made it epic?
the story
You could say fire
was always around
But I made it epic
because of the story
Yes and no. Dwarves were transformed...no longer the happy little 7 bachelors
needing a maid, they became an fierce and proud nation.
Elves too...the guardians, as it were, of the light.
Eh, I dpn't know. I'm still angry about Tolkien's dwarves in the
Hobbit
as ranted about in my recent blog post
As opposed to either bothersome pixies or dancing sprites.
I guess that's a fair point. You might even say Tolkien made it less
racist
Middle Earth. Where did that come from? Absolute good vs. Absolute evil,
obviously similar to Christianity.
Another thing I don't like. Fantasy needs to have grey areas.My book is all about grey. I seriously don't even know who's got the right
philosophy. I mean, I know who is ACTING wrongly, but I don't know whose POINTS
I agree with 100%
Yes...but then there are the orcs. Twisted elves. Tales of evil fairies
abound in Europe, of course. But this seems more a commentary on people's
nature...
Hence my other post about agreeing with your villains
Politics! Let's get into that later.
Yes! Politics and religion, my two favorites
So, bottom line, Tolkien took a sort of classic line himself. He just
cemented the motif.
And therefore, to replicate him is only to hinder your writing.
Break the mold, people.
Back in a sec. Probably...
yeah I gotta get writing
Ok. I have homework. Good chat.
Council adjourned
I'd like to add that you can still use dragons and elves in your storylines,
people. Just make them YOUR dragons and elves. Farewell.
Durvoth will conquer.
Farewell
philosophy. I mean, I know who is ACTING wrongly, but I don't know whose POINTS
I agree with 100%
Yes...but then there are the orcs. Twisted elves. Tales of evil fairies
abound in Europe, of course. But this seems more a commentary on people's
nature...
Hence my other post about agreeing with your villains
Politics! Let's get into that later.
Yes! Politics and religion, my two favorites
So, bottom line, Tolkien took a sort of classic line himself. He just
cemented the motif.
And therefore, to replicate him is only to hinder your writing.
Break the mold, people.
Back in a sec. Probably...
yeah I gotta get writing
Ok. I have homework. Good chat.
Council adjourned
I'd like to add that you can still use dragons and elves in your storylines,
people. Just make them YOUR dragons and elves. Farewell.
Durvoth will conquer.
Farewell
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